Hi,

My name is Mike Knauf and I'm planning on running in WF lite with you guys next year - right now I am running a Sealed Animal class at Avon. I will still be running regional and club races with GVKC in a WKA Animal but I plan on running most of BKC's schedule as well.

I would like get an idea of how many drivers expect to run this class next year to help me make the final push to get a WF engine to run. I'd really like to run this class because the racing looks close and competitive but I don't want to run against one or two other karts like I am with the Sealed Animal with GVKC.

Help me make the jump! And if you see me this weekend come over and say hi and convince me I should run with you guys I have a black body, red frame Coyote GL, #21.

Thanks!

Mike, I've been doing some listening and everyone should be back for the 2012 season . we also are talking to a few others about getting on board with our program. We plan on having a nice field of karts for next year.

Jim,

Would you guys consider running WITH Avon if we could have a points class that would utilize your engine rules?

I may be able to convince some others to run that class if so.

As far as the tire rule I am not sure there.

We have the four tire rule at Avon 5" Dunlop SL4, Bridgestone YHC/YLC, Burris 55, DeCuzzi and I'm not sure I could convince the club to use your rule. You would of course be legal at our events but unless we were running the 55's we would not be at yours.

Also I think you would see that other tires, with the exception of the DeCuzzi are much quicker than the Burris 55.

I want to run this by the club - not sure who the Prez will be for next year but I think we will find out soon.

To me it doesn't make sense for our clubs to have different classes. We could easily have bigger, competitive classes if we combined.

I also want to look into switching our Sealed Animal Sr class to something more along your rules. If we could run them Box stock with the option for the HD springs (for durability, not performance), with or without the seals and use the same header and clutch you guys do we could combine those classes. It will be tough to convince Rich (our 4 cycle rep) to go that way.

My take = not official in any way and I speak only for myself:

Our club's schedule originally included 6 points races at Avon and 5 points races at other tracks. Personally, I really like running a variety of tracks and wouldn't be a full-time participant in an Avon-only series. I think this makes it even trickier to combine classes because if the Avon guys run the class every week, you'll have inconsistent counts week in and week out, and you'll have guys mixed up in each other's points.

One of the really attractive things about a spec class is that you don't have to worry about being beaten by other people's equipment and it keeps costs lower for everyone. Our club has always run a spec tire as long as I've been involved, and I think by and large our two years with the Burris tires have been pretty successful. I think most of us ran two sets this year, some of us three sets, and I think it would have been really hard to do that on the Bridgestones we used to run. If we used Avon's tire rule, I agree the Burris guys would get crushed.

On the engine side, I am not a fan of equivalence formulas or grandfathering. Right now we do have someone running a Yamaha with the Masters class and we do have an Animal running with lights. I understand the concept: get counts up and keep costs down, but I think it's very hard to find parity that way. The box-stock WF is super effective at ensuring drivers can be competitive without spending a lot of money, but it only works if everyone runs the box-stock WF.

On the other hand, I'd really love to see our kart counts grow, especially in WF Lite, so I don't want to sound like I'm totally against the idea I'd like to see us find a way to let interested Avon guys run with our guys. However, I think for it to really work it's got to follow our "spec WF" style rules or costs will go up and/or some people will not be competitive.

Again, my 2 cents, not official, blah blah blah.

I understand your concerns.

BUT I think more kart counts for a few events is better than low counts at all. JMO

I would, as a gentleman, run the same tires as you guys. I think if we could get the WF class to work then we could get the spec tire rule seen as how it is new.

As far as the Animal class I would like to keep the same tire rule that Avon has and just work on trying to get the Sr Animal Motors on the same page as your engines. Right now Avon has the advantage of having the AN001 cam installed. Those could easily be removed and sold to builders, and stock Animal cams picked up for next to nothing (as far as I know motor builders are either tossing them or selling them as cores to Dyno and such).

The only other modification from Box Stock to the Animal motors is the HD springs. We only do that for reliability, not performance. So I think that could be OPTIONAL and not give anyone a significant advantage.

Now as far as points I don't forsee a problem there. We could just as easily run everyone together and split the points based on the club i.e.

Say for a feature we had 2 GVKC participants and 5 BKC participants.

Say the finishing order was:

1 - BKC #1
2 - GVKC #1
3 - BKC #2
4 - BKC #3
5 - GVKC #2
6 - BKC #4
7 - BKC #5

If you were a member of BKC you would receive points based on your BKC finish. If you were a GVKC member, then you would recieve points based on the GVKC finish i.e. the guy who came in second would be first in GVKC points. If you were a member of both clubs then you would receive points in both, both based on the separation of clubs.

I didn't want the points thing to be an issue, so much as everyone having the same classes and being able to run together and thus getting bigger classes and more competitive racing.

That is my thought/hope.

Comments welcome.

I may have confused myself when you brought up the Animal.. We don't have an Animal class right now, so I assumed you meant to run the Animal with the WFs, which is why I brought up equivalency. If you didn't intend that, then we can take that off the table

On the points, I think that's less of an issue. You could keep points for GVKC, and Batavia could just keep an "away" points tally.

This are also just my thoughts... Other members and/or the board members may totally disagree with me

I appreciate your comments.

I will submit a formal proposal to your board and ours.

Mike, I think your putting too much into running at avon. We are a traveling series that races at a variety of tracks with our own classes and rules package. When we go to a track we are a stand alone group. trying to combind with another group would be disasterous for our group and I would lobby against it. We have a formula that works and except for a couple of tweeks it will remain the same. The formula is simple, spec engine,tires, fuel, competitive weights-have fun. We don't want to fall into the problems tracks across the country are experiencing with too many engines and classes. We are a small group that puts the emphisis on having fun, not how much you can spend. With that said we would love to have you race in the WFL class. You will need to decide if you want to have a complete different setup to do so.

My thoughts: Payton runs animal gold against gvkc gold class.The competition is good with gvkc having an edge with motors. I feel that if gvkc senior animals would like to compete with our lights or heavy world formula class it would be the best for both clubs. Points will be awarded to the finish of that club. I feel this would help getting home earlier and having more competition for all classes. Both clubs have differnt rule packages that would be too costly in this day and age. I am all for some of the gvkc racers joining us at other tracks( non points) this would be nice using their rule package.
As a board member these are my thoughts.
Don

Thank you for your support Don.

I sent proposal to Jim which I am hoping he will forward to all the other board members.

It does not require you guys to change any of your class structuring.

Essentially what I am now proposing is some restructuring of GVKC so that we have more or less similar classes, in which members from either club can compete in and benefit from the increased fun factor of running with more karts.

Not saying anything against either club but I agree 110% with numbers as low as they are it doesn't make sense to have different class structures between two clubs in such close proximity.

I am NOT supporting anyone at this time.Looks like you put alot of time into figuring things out.This is something that should be looked at by all members and I don't think the outcome will be a good one;But there is slight hope... good luck

WOW OK.

Yeah I don't quite get it to be honest?

Avon is resistant so far; you guys are resistant; Jim has not responded to my proposal.

Seems like a bunch of egos getting in the way if you ask me... but what do I know?

I must say this reaction may change my thoughts on running with you guys at all - I can go another route. I have others karts and motors and I haven't purchased a WF yet - I could probably get at least one other GVKC member to run this class, and if you look at the cost numbers for a Sealed Sr. Animal vs. a buying a WF package new from Jimbo at Faster Motors the cost is actually about the same, so the more the word gets out, the more that may want to switch.

Any if that is going to be the way it is going to be I might as well just run national and regional stuff and forget trying to promote people...

I hope you didn't think a decision was going to be made right away. In reality we probably would not address your proposal until our meeting of the general membership in January, We are at the end of a race season with points races being fought. We only have one points race left at Avon and one non-points race the other races are at another venue. I am a bit taken back at your attitude towards us from your last post but we would like to have you race with the BKC if your willing to play by the rules.

A simple acknowledgment at this point would have been nice. I'm not expecting anything to happen overnight.

Forgive my blunt response but seriously if you want more drivers in your class you have to act like you do. Some people are really trying to figure out now what they want to race next year and may change their minds if you guys wait until January to even acknowledge anything.

Also, I only had one person approach me at the last event and talk to me about running WF, that was Will.

The last race was a bit chaotic with most of us running around like chickens with no heads trying to get wet or dry setups on karts with changing weather, but I'd be happy to talk to you about the club or the class. Just look for the dark blue 28 or the guy with red hair and say hi

On the topic of next year, I have to agree with Michael. I'd love to see BKC have a membership meeting right after season close to review this year and look ahead to next year. It gives us a little more lead time to address any potential vacancies on the board. It would also be a great time to get other folks who are interested in running with us a chance to talk through their options and meet BKC racers. If people want to make changes then it'd be nice to give them an extra 2-3 months to get their equipment in order.

One more thing - if you or anyone is thinking of getting a WF, make sure it's a box-stock motor. Blueprinted motors aren't legal under BKC rules.

We, at GVKC, are very well aware of the box stock rules and I for one applaud them. I would like it if we switched our Sealed Animal class to box stock because it would be cheaper.

I probably mentioned this like 50 times but I can get a box stock WF from Jimbo at faster motors that comes with clutch, two driver gears, fuel pump, pipe, heat disperser, air filer, muffler, pull and electric start for $990. All I need to buy extra is a throttle kit, header wrap, chain guard and exhaust brackets. Maybe another $70~80.

The sealed engines we run at Avon go for $1000 new and you have to buy an exhaust brace and header wrap for that so that runs you another $30.

I'd much rather run an engine with more power and a better clutch and pay the extra $40 or so to do it.

Also the tires we run are a bit more expensive that the burris 55's. They have a lot more grip and typically go about 6 to 8 race/practice days. I don't know that the burris tires last much longer but they are cheap and it seems they even out the chassis'.

You might notice I left out shipping... well we have to pay tax on that $1000 Sealed animal so it works out to be about be CHEAPER to get an engine shipped from Wisconsin than to pay tax in NY